Conversation with Santiago Cirugeda on the occasion of BAQ XX

This is not the first time that Santiago Cirgueda visits Quito; he came as speaker of BAQ a few years ago. He confesses that the 20th edition was more enjoyable, however, he was harshly critical of the theme, "useful classroom" and the lines that derived from this topic: social architecture, “collectives” and the materialization of architecture. (Also see critical review and conversation with Andrés Maragaño from Talca). 

Santiago Cirgueda (C): The subject interests me very much. But as an approach, it looks typical, they haven’t had nor time, neither resources. I believe it is unsuccessful in the way that they haven’t been demanding. They haven’t told the truth, they don’t ask you to look beyond what they tell you. They must give minimum demands if they want to generate new educational policies. In the way they are managing the conference they won’t achieve any change.

 C: Telling the truth of the archer, the one that you tell in the bar later with two drinks. It isn’t what they are telling now have in front of the public. They are afraid of being copied.
 

C: Of course.

"If I can’t decide where my taxes go, why does a big company? Because it has many relationships and millions of wealth."

C: Totally. But aside from the stylistic movement there is an important simile. What worries me is that there is a dude from Sevilla who is in Queretaro, Mexico, that said to me: I come here to find out about your process, to implement certain things. This study is sponsored by the private sector. He, as a Sevillian, looks at me a lot. But he doesn’t tell me stories: “how nice, the students are building wooden things”. He talks me about the normative project of that structure, how long it really lasts and how temporary it is. Sometimes it lasts for 3 months, and you have to throw it away. And who finances it? In many Mexican projects financing is private. They have forgotten public reciprocity.

What is occurring? That private sponsorship as a base provoques the forgetfulness of the public. That is what I mean: "the public is administered as it is administered and I do my social projects with the private". The taxes of a nation goes to public administrators who have been voted democratically. I don’t forget. But there are so many people who say, "Let them do their social policies, I'm going to do mine." But I pay taxes, and my mother, and my father, and my cousin. You, administrator of public goods, I demand you a better education, because you are the one who makes the laws. Not in the private sector, but in the public one. Rural Studio (BAQ speaker) talked about the donations of the projects ... well Xavi, don’t forget about the public resources. That is the serious topic. So what are we talking about? Also TALCA (BAQ speaker), they are telling us a lost potion. They should tell us the truth of the archer.

C: Of course. They are making it easier. In fact, there are some examples on board. For example, in Mexico, a company can decide where will go its taxes. If I can’t decide where the taxes go, why does a company? And why does a big company? Because it has many relationships and millions of wealth.

C: It returns to its family or its people, to its own interests. But those who produce the greatest amounts of money finally don’t give a solution. It becomes in a kind of ideal that they are the public administrators of taxes. I do not want that bad circle. And I will look over what the state does, and if it does it right. If it doesn’t I will denounce it, I will manifest, or even I will be illegal.

C: I see it in the collectives, especially in Europe. For example, Assemble (BAQ speakers). They are preppy children. They said: "... we are in school, and from everything we have seen, this is funnier, we find it very ‘happy’ ..."

The second part is the budget. I’ve worked with and without money because I want to, and I claim for public budget, because we are managing some public goods. In the case of the “Club House” [1] for mental health there is a population of 150 people who no longer goes to public mental health centers. I am lightening to the state of its responsibility. There is an improvement because the project and reconstruction mechanisms are psychiatrically adapted to these people, they are going to consume less drugs and less public resources.

"social pornography is its users."

C: You see collectives in Europe that are maintained by public funds, and work with society. But they don’t tell you everything, and that must be said at a conference. They don’t tell you that they are working with students in a Muslim neighbourhood. Later, they take a photograph –a little trick- the photo of the happy black child on a swing. They don’t say they are spending 200 thousand euros for a square that would cost 35 thousand. It is made with pallets, as typical, with 4 arches that are mistreated and can’t stay up. They don’t tell us that, uh? I’ve investigated, they don’t tell me that the black guy and the Muslim are in conflict, one cuts off the ear of the other... there’ve been three deaths there.

C: I'm sorry there's tremendous pornography. The great photographer of the great sculptural work that had to exist. I think that Zaha Hadid and Foster were necessary in contemporary history. They were evidence of a economic moment of splendor. All the magazines took that expression of exaggeration, done with gigantic technical and economic means. Now, it’s happening the same with the social projects and the social pornography is its users.

 C: It's my absolutely opinion

C: Here, in Ecuador, the university has a compulsory social bond, in other countries there is such a link as a constituent of the university. There is a social responsibility in students and in architecture schools even though they are from different origins. It is important not only the relationship with society, but the social action of building. I can have a robot that raises a beam of 600 kilos or look for 20 volunteers, invite them to beers and lift that beam between all of them, and these people enjoy the process, the robot doesn’t.

C: Neither Archigram built as a team, nor Constant built as a person or as part of the group. In the catalogue of Constant's exhibition in Madrid, we were compared with him, we’ve been mentioned 3 times. My publisher, a brilliant guy, is furious about the empowerment they give to Constant, when he never dared. They were romantic intellectuals (along with Guy Debord), who conversed and got drunk and finally never faced the state and burst it.

C: It is absolutely necessary, if I not, I can flatter myself with my colleague in my house, in the effervescence of intellectuality. You can produce with screws, models, knowledge and books. You are a producer in other areas and you have fun doing it, then it happens that it is more comfortable ... a certain type of work that doesn’t have to face certain agents ... you are with your friends, your power group doing painting, poetry, politics ...

"When we commit an illegality there is a background of a social function on that property or those public resources. I don’t do an illegality like the bastards who commit it to be richer."

If you study architecture the situation makes you build or deconstruct, and for certain issues you must know the social relationship. Talk to a social worker and you will see that the architects are super aggressive when doing social interviews. In Spain social workers have known for years the relationships of people. I was entrusted with 350 homes for this year, knowing that I can’t meet 350 families. I planned to divide them in small groups, and if a building is made by four architects, they don’t get it. In the architecture school if you ask a group of 4 friends to make a project, they don’t know how to manage it.

In Uruguay, with Mujica, housing projects are made with technical equipment teams in technical institutes, to make social housing. You must have a public document that includes an economist, an administrator, a lawyer and a social psychologist, because they understand that Uruguayan model works. It's one of the best models in the world, I mean it. This strategy of sharing knowledge is fundamental, but here we think that architects does everything: they do the interview, they take the picture with the old woman, and then, they convince us that we are gods.

C: We have committed illegalities in the embezzlement of public funds. But as it hasn’t been for personal benefit, but for a network of collectives that needed one thing. I have committed illegalities on previous illegalities. For example, I cut a road with a bulldozer and I’ve been reported, but the road was illegal, so I broke a thing that is illegal. When we commit an illegality there is a background of a social function on that property or those public resources. I don’t do an illegality like the bastards who commit it to be richer.

C: Yes, indeed, there are things that are illegal now and will be legal in 2 years. For example, the woman's vote. When they fought for it many women were hit in their faces, but it was ethical for the woman to vote, and there were many deaths and many men beat women for wanting to vote.

C: A lot. That is why I claim that certain "cool" groups work with cultural management and when asked them if they know about the culture law that protects them they have no idea.

C: We both know that the sites where I act have a city model, a normative model, a model of society and a model of consumption. But that model is tremendously economic. You have to go to an anti-model. The last thing I do is to ask for a license, I don’t need it in order to execute a project.

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